In the third session of 'Unlocking Engineering Productivity' webinar by Typo, host Kovid Batra converses with engineering leaders Clint Calleja and Rens Methratta about strategies for enhancing team productivity.
Clint, Senior Director of Engineering at Contentsquare, and Rens, CTO at Prendio, share their perspectives on the importance of psychological safety, clear communication, and the integration of AI tools to boost productivity. The panel emphasizes balancing short-term deliverables with long-term technical debt, and the vital role of culture and clear goals in aligning teams. Through discussions on personal experiences, challenges, and learnings, the session provides actionable insights for engineering managers to improve developer experience and foster a collaborative working environment.
Kovid Batra: All right. Welcome to the third session of Unlocking Engineering Productivity. This is Kovid, your host and with me today we have two amazing, passionate engineering leaders, Clint and Rens. So I’ll introduce them one by one. Let’s go ahead. Uh, Clint, uh, he’s the senior Director of engineering at Contentsquare, ex-Hotjar, uh, a long time friend and a mentor. Uh, welcome, welcome to the show, Clint. It is great to have you here.
Clint Calleja: Thank you. Thank you, Kovid. It’s, uh, it’s uh, it’s very exciting to be here. Thank you for the invite.
Kovid Batra: Alright. Uh, so Clint, uh, I think we were talking about your hobbies last time and I was really, uh, fascinated by the fact. So guys, uh, Clint is actually training in martial arts. Uh, he’s very, very, uh, well trained professional martial arts player and he’s particularly, uh, more interested in karate. Is it right, Clint?
Clint Calleja: Yes. Yes indeed. It’s, uh, I wouldn’t say professionally, you know, we’ve been at it for two years, me and the kids. But yes, it’s, uh, it’s grown on me. I enjoy it.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. What else do you like? Uh, would you like to share something about your hobbies and passions?
Clint Calleja: Yeah, I’m, I’m pretty much into, um, on the, you know, more movement side. Uh, I’m, I’m, I’m into sports in general, like fit training, and I enjoy a game of squash here and there. And then on the commerce side, I need my, you know, daily dose of reading. It, it varies. Sometimes it’s, uh, around leadership, sometimes psychology. Uh, lately it’s a bit more also into stoicism and the art of controlling, you know, thinking about what we can control. Uh, yeah, that’s, that’s me basically.
Kovid Batra: That’s great. Really interesting. Um, the, another guest that we have today, uh, we have Rens with us. Uh, Rens is CTO of Prendio. Uh, he is also a typo product user and a product champion. He has been guiding us throughout, uh, on building the product so far. Welcome to the show, Rens.
Rens Methratta: Hi, Kovid. Uh, you know, it’s good to be here. Uh, Clint, it’s really good to meet you. Uh, very excited to participate and, uh, uh, it’s always really good to, uh, talk shop. Uh, enjoy it.
Kovid Batra: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Uh, all right, uh, Rens, would you like to tell us something about your hobbies? How do you unwind your day? What do you do outside of work?
Rens Methratta: Yeah, no, um, it’s funny, I don’t have many, I don’t think I have many hobbies anymore. I mean, I have two young kids now, um, and they are, uh, they take up, their hobbies are my hobbies. So, uh, um, so gymnastics, soccer, um, we have, uh, other, you know, a lot of different sports things and piano. So I, I’ve, I’ve learning, I’m learning piano with my daughter. I guess that’s a hobby. Um, that’s, uh, not far asleep, but I’m, I’m enjoying it. But I think a lot of their things that they do become stuff that, um, I get involved in and I really try to, um, I try to enjoy it with them as well. It makes, it makes it more fun.
Kovid Batra: No, I can totally understand that, because having two kids and, uh, being in a CTO position, uh, I think all your time would be consumed outside of work by the kids. Uh, that’s, that’s totally fine. And if your hobbies are aligned with what your kids are doing, that’s, that’s good for them and good for you.
Rens Methratta: Yeah, no, I, I, I think, I think it’s, I, I, I, I love it. I enjoy it. I, it keeps me, you know, I always say, you know, I think there’s a, I remember learning a long time ago, someone said that, you know, how you, uh, the, when you get older, you know, life, life goes by faster. ’cause you kept on doing the same stuff every day and your mind just samples less, right? So, like, they kind of keep me young. I get to do new stuff, um, with, through them. So it’s, it’s been good.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Perfect. Um, thanks for the, for the introduction. Uh, we got to know you a little more, but that doesn’t stop here. Uh, Clint, you were talking about psychology reading those books. Uh, there is one small ritual, uh, on, on this show, uh, that is again, driven from my, uh, love for psychology, understanding human behavior and everything. So, uh, the ritual is basically that you have to tell something about yourself, uh, from your childhood, from your teenage, uh, that defines you who you are today.
Clint Calleja: Very interesting question. It reminds me of, uh, of a previous manager I used to have used to like, okay, asking this question as well. I think, um, there was a recent one which we just mentioned. Uh, you know, we’re mentioning kids, Rens, you got me to it. The fact that I actually started training martial arts because of the kids, I took them and I ended up doing it myself. Uh, so it was one of those. But I think the biggest one that comes to mind was, um, in 2005, at the age of 22, um, in Malta, you know, we’re a very tightly-knit culture. Um, uh, people, you know, stay living with their parents long, where a small island, everyone is close by. So I wanted to see what’s out there. So I went to live for a year in Germany. Um, and it was, I think this was the most defining moment because for two France. On one side it was the, um, a career opportunity where whilst I was still studying. So for software engineering part-time, um, there was this company that offered to take me on as an intern, but trained me for a whole year in their offices in Germany. So that was a good, uh, step in the right direction career wise, but, uh, outside, you know, of the profession, just on a personal life basis, it was such an eye-opener. It was, uh, this was the year where I realized, um, how many things were, was I taking for granted? You know, like, uh, family and friends. Yeah. Close by when you need them. Um, even simple things like, you know, the sunny weather in Malta, so the sea close by, like, I think this was the year where I became much more aware of all of this and, uh, could be, could reflect a bit deeper.
Kovid Batra: I totally relate to this actually. Uh, for you it happened, uh, I would say a little late because probably you moved out during your, uh, job or, uh, later in the college. For me, it happened in early teenage, I moved out for schooling for host, hostel and there were same realizations that I had and it got me thinking a lot about what I was taking for granted. So I totally relate and, and, and that actually defined me, who am I today. I’m much more grateful towards my parents and, uh, family that I have with me. Yeah.
Clint Calleja: Exactly. Exactly.
Kovid Batra: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Rens, it’s your turn now.
Rens Methratta: Yeah. I, I, yeah. I’m, I’m glad, um, I, thinking through this, it was, it was an interesting question. Um, I think, you know, I, I, I’d say me growing up, I grew up on a, with my grandparents, right. And, and we, we had a farm, and I think growing up with them, obviously them being a bit older, I, I think they had a, you know, that there’s, I think you get older, you get a little bit more sense of maturity, kind of, you know, thinking of the world and seeing that at a young age, I think was really good for me because, you know, they were, you know, in farming there’s lots of things that sometimes go wrong. There’s floods, there’s, uh, disease, there’s, yeah, lots of stuff. But you know how they kind of approach things like, you know, they’re, you know, they were, they were never about, you know, let’s, let’s blame anyone, let’s do this, let’s, you know, really focus on, hey, let’s stay calm. Let’s focus on solving the problem. Let’s figure it out. Kind of staying positive. And, and I think that was really helpful for me. I think in setting an example, and really the biggest thing they taught me was like, you know, there are certain things you just can’t control. You know, just focus on things you can control and worry about those. And, you know, and, and, and, and that’s it. Really be positive in a lot of ways. Yeah. And I, I carry that with me a lot. And I think there’s, you know, there’s a lot of stuff you can stress out about, but there’s only so many things you can control and you kinda let go of everything else. So, so totally. That’s kind of, keep that with me.
Kovid Batra: Totally makes sense. I mean, uh, people like you coming from humble backgrounds are more fighter in nature. Uh, they’re more positive in lives, they’re more optimistic towards such situations. And I’ve seen that in a lot of, a lot of folks around me. Uh, people who are privileged do not really, um, get to be that anti-fragile, uh, when situations come, they break down easily. So I think that defines who you are. I totally relate to that. Perfect. Great. Thank you. Thank you for sharing this. Uh, alright guys. Uh, I think now we will move on to the main section, uh, whatever this particular unlocking engineering productivity is about. Uh, uh, today’s theme is around, uh, developer experience and of course the experience is that you have, you both have gathered over your engineering leadership journey. So I’ll start with a very fundamental thing and I think, uh, we’ll, we’ll go with Rens first. Uh, so let, let’s say, Rens, we, we’ll start. Uh, what according to you is engineering productivity? I mean, that’s the very fundamental question that I ask on this episode, but I want to hear out, the audience would want to understand what is the perspective of engineering leaders of such high performing teams when they talk about productivity?
Rens Methratta: Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of ways I, there there’s, are the, obviously the simple things, metrics you like, um, you know, velocity, things like that. Those are always good. Those are good to have. But from my perspective, um, and the way that I, I think really good teams function is, uh, making sure the teams are aligned with business objectives, right? So what we’re trying to accomplish, common goals, um, regardless of, you know, how big an organization is, I think if, um, and it gets harder when you get bigger, obviously, right? It’s like identifying, uh, the layers between your impact and then maybe the business is higher. Maybe it’s easier for smaller teams. Um, but, but regardless, I think that’s, that’s always been what I’ve seen that the outcome, a linking to the outcomes that makes the most sense, and understanding productivity. So like, hey, these are, this is, this is what their goals are. You know, I think OKRs work really well in terms of structuring that as a, as a framework. Right. But realistically I’m saying, Hey, here’s, here’s what we as a team are trying to accomplish. Uh, you know, here’s how we’re gonna measure it based on some sort of, you know, whatever the business metric is or the key outcome is. And then let’s work on fi, let’s work on figuring it out. And then, then, then, then basically how we, how we do that is okay. We, uh, I think my approach has always been, um, this is what we want to do. This is what we think we need to do to do, uh, do it. And then what are we gonna commit to? Like, when do we think, what are we gonna commit to? When are we gonna get it done, right? And how well do we do to that? Right? So I think that’s how we tie it all together. Um, so basically just yeah, uh, you know, getting us all line aligned on objectives, right? And making sure the objectives have meaning to the team. Like I, I, it’s always hard when people feel like why am I doing this, right? And, and that’s always the worst, right? But if it’s clear that, hey, we, we know how this is gonna make an impact on our customers or the business, and they can see it. Um, and then, but then aligning to, okay, we see it, we see the problem, here’s a solution, we think it’s gonna work. Uh, here’s what we’re committing to, to fix it. And then, then, then it’s really measuring, you know, how well did we meet on committing, getting to that? You know, did we re, did we deliver what we said we’re gonna deliver? Did we deliver it on time? Those are things that we kind of look at.
Kovid Batra: Got it. Got it. What, what do you have to say, Clint? Uh.
Clint Calleja: It’s, uh, it, it’s, uh, my, my definition is very much aligned. Like, uh, from a, a higher perspective. To me, it all boils down. And, um, how well are we, uh, and how well and quickly are we delivering the right value to the user? Right? And, uh, this kind of, uh, if we drill down to this, um, this means like how quickly are we able to experiment and learn from that as our architecture is allowing us to do that as quickly as we want. How well are we planning and executing on those plans, uh, with least disruptions possible, like being proactive rather than be reactive to disruption. So there’s, you know, there’s a whole, uh, sphere of accountability that we, we, we need to take into consideration.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. I think both of you, uh, are pointing towards the same thing. Fundamentally, if I see it, it’s about more about delivering value to the customer, delivering more value, which aligns with the business goals, and that totally makes sense. But what, what do you guys think, uh, when it comes to, uh, other peers, uh, other engineering leaders, do you see the same perspective, uh, about engineering productivity, uh, Rens?
Rens Methratta: Um, I think in general, yes. I think, I think you end up and I, and I think sometimes you end up getting caught in. Um, I, you know, sometimes you get caught up in just hitting, trying to hit a metric, right? And then losing track of, you know, are we working on the right things? Is this, is this worthwhile? I think that’s when it’s, it could be, uh, you know, maybe problematic, right? So I, you know, I even in my early in my career at this, if they, where I’ve, I’ve done that, like, hey, you know, let’s, let’s be really as efficient as possible in terms of building a metrics organization, right? We’ll do kind of, everything’s our small projects, right? And we’ll get these things in really quickly. And, you know, I I, I think that, you know, what I learned is in that situation, like, yeah, we’re, we’re doing stuff, but then the team’s not as motivated. The, you know, we’re not, it’s not as collaborative, the outcome isn’t gonna be, um, as good. Like I think if we have, I think the really key thing is from my perspective, is keeping having a, a team that’s engaged, right? And being part of the process and proactive. Right. And obviously measuring to what the outcomes are, but, um, that’s side of my, where I feel it’s great when we, when we go to a, like a, a, uh, or a retrospective or a sprint planning where we’re like, Hey, teams are like, I don’t think this works. Like I, I, the worst part is when you get like crickets from people, like, okay, this is what we wanna do. Like, and no, no real feedback. Right? I think I really look for, you know, how engaged teams are, you know, how in terms of solving the problem, right? Um, and that’s, and I think that a lot of that cross collaboration, right? And how, um, and building a, a kind of environment where people feel empowered to kind of ask those questions, be collaborative, ask tough questions too, right? Like, I, I love it when an engineer says this, this is not gonna work, right? And it’s great. I’m like, yeah, let’s tell me why. Right? So I, I think if we can build cultures that way, that, that, that’s, that’s ideal.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Perfect. Uh, Clint, for you, uh, do you see the same perspective and how, how things get prioritized in that way?
Clint Calleja: I, I particularly love the focus and the tension on the culture, the cultural aspect. I think there’s, there’s more to it that we can unpack there, but yes, in general, um, I think actually when, when I heard this question, it reminded me of when I realized the needs of data points, not just for the sake of data points, of KPIs, but what I started to see as the company started to grow is that without sitting down and agreeing on what good looks like, what are the data points that we’re looking at, I started to see, um, a close definition, but not, not exact definition, which still left, you know, openness to interpretation. And there were cases as we grew, uh, bigger and bigger where, for example, I felt we were performing well, whereas someone else felt differently. And then you sit down and you realize, okay, this is the crux of the problem, so we need that. That was the eureka moment where like, okay, so this is where we need data points on team performance, on system performance, on product performance in general.
Kovid Batra: Yeah. Makes sense. I think both of, both of you have brought in some really good points and I would like to deep dive into those as we move forward. Uh, but before, like we move on to some specific experiences around those pointers, uh, Clint, uh, in your journey, uh, over the last so many years, there must have been some counterintuitive things that I would have that you would’ve realized now, uh, uh, that are not aligned with what you used to think earlier, how productivity is driven in teams. Are there any, anythings? Is, is that thing ringing a bell?
Clint Calleja: Uh, well, if you ask me about learnings on, uh, you know, things that I used to think are good for productivity and now I think they’re not, and I evolve them, I think I keep having these one and one out, right? Um, but again, like, uh, the alignment on piece, key set of indicators rather than just a few was one of those big changes in my, in my leadership career, because I went from using sprint, um, as the only data points to then extending to understanding why the DORA metrics better, why actually SPACE matters even more because they’re the, um, the, the wellbeing factor and how engaged people are. So, uh, I realized that I needed to form a bigger picture of data points in order to be able, able, able to understand all the picture. And again, not just the data points, the quantitative data points, I also needed to fill in the gaps with the qualitative parts.
Kovid Batra: Sure. I think, yeah, that goes hand in hand, uh, alone, either of those is not sufficient to actually look at what’s going on and how to improve on those factors. Perfect. Makes sense. Rens, for you, uh, there must have been some learnings over the years and, uh, anything that you find was intuitive earlier, but now it’s counterintuitive? Yeah.
Rens Methratta: Yeah, no, I think I, learnings every day. Um, but I, I, yeah, in general, maybe what Clint said, right? So you, I did end up at some point overindexing on like some of the quantitative stuff, right? And it’s like, and, and you lose track of what are you trying to do, right? So, hey, I did, we did really well. We, um, you know, we’re doing, um, in terms of, uh, you know, we, we got through our sprints, we got, we were getting to the, uh, we’re doing planning where, hey, our meeting times are low, right? Or these, these are so many things you can, there’s so many things you can look at, and then you lose pic, then lose track of the greater picture, right? So I, I do think of, you know, identifying those north stars, right? And these was referencing, right? Those what we think are important, saying, Hey, what are, how are we measuring to that? And also then also that helps you make sure you’re looking at the right metrics, potentially, right? And putting them in the right context, right? So, you know, it doesn’t matter your, if your velocity’s great, if you’re not building the right things, right? If you, it doesn’t matter if you’re like, so those are the things I think you kinda learned. Like, hey, sometimes it’s just. Um, you know, simplify, you know, the, you know, the what you want, what you, the what you, what you look at, right? And, and try to, try to think through like a, how are, how are we as a team meeting that? And also try to, primarily from a team perspective, right? Getting alignment on that. Like, Hey, this is what we’re, this is the goal we’re trying to get to. And I, I feel like that’s when you get most, uh, commitment from the team too. Like, Hey, uh, it’s easy. I know what we’re trying to do it, and it, it, it, it motivates people to be like, yep, this is what we’re trying to get to. It’s, it’s, it’s something to celebrate when we get to it, right? Otherwise, it just gets, I, it’s, it’s not hard. It’s, it’s it’s hard to celebrate. Like, oh, we got, we got X velocity. I’m like, ah, that’s not, that’s not right. So yeah, I think that’s a better learning, simplifying, right? And, and, um, and also, you know, simplifying in a way and then defining the metrics based on those core metrics like the, uh, and so they all flow down so that it, it aligns, right? And people, you can point something easily, easily and say, this is why it’s important. Right? Um, yeah, I think that’s really important when you communicate to people, Hey, look, this is problematic. Uh, we need to, we might need to take a look at this. And be able to really simplify, say, this is why it’s important, this is why it’s problematic. Uh, this is why it’s gonna impact our North Star. Right? I think that makes conversations a lot easier.
Kovid Batra: Totally, makes sense guys. I think having the right direction along with whatever you are doing on day-to-day basis as KPIs is very important. And of course, to understand a holistic picture, uh, to understand the developer’s experience, a team’s experience to improve overall productivity, not just quantitative, but qualitative data is equally important. So I think to sum up both of your learnings, I think this is a good piece of insight. Now, um, we will jump onto the next section, section, but before that, I would like to, uh, tell my audience, our audience that uh, if they have any questions, we are gonna have a QnA round at the end of the session. So it’s better you guys put in all your questions in the comments right now so that we have filtered it out by the end of the episode. And, uh, moving on now. So guys, uh. The next section is about specific experiences that we are gonna deep dive into from Rens and Clint’s journeys. Uh, we’ll start with you, Clint. Uh, I think the, the best part about your experience that I have felt after stalking you on LinkedIn is that, uh, you, you have had experience of going through multiple acquisitions and, uh, you work with smaller and larger organizations, high performing teams. Uh, this kind of experience brings a lot of exposure and we would want to learn something from you. How does this transition happen? And in those transitions, what, what should an engineering leader should be doing, uh, to make it more, uh, to not make it overwhelming and to be more productive and do the right things, create the impact even during those transitions?
Clint Calleja: Uh, yes. Uh, we’ve been through a, I’ve been through a couple of interesting experience, and I think like, uh, I dare to say, for me, they were like, especially the acquisition, uh, where HR was acquired was, um, uh, a unique, a very unique experience to big companies merging together. Um, it’s very easy for such a transition to be overwhelming. I mean, there’s a lot of things to do. Um, so I think the first key takeaway for me is like, clear communication, intentional, um, communication, regular, and, uh, making sure that we as a leader, like you’re making yourself available to support everyone and to help to guide others along this journey. Um, it’s, then there’s the other side of it that, you know, uh, it, it, such an experience is. Um, does not come without its own challenges, right? Uh, the outcomes are big. Um, uh, and in engineering leadership specifically, you know, that there’s a primary, um, area that you start to think about is, okay, the, the systems, what does it mean when talk about technology stacks the platforms? But it’s something not to underestimate, is also the ways of working in the culture when merging with companies because, uh, I, I ca, I ca I started to, uh, coming to the realization that I think there’s more effort required than planning there, than in the technology side, um, of the story. So, very interesting experience. Um, how to get the teams up and running. I mean, my experience last year was very, again, very, very challenging in a good way. You know, I started in a completely new. Department with about 55 people. 70% of them were new to me coming from the parent company. So we needed to, we already had goals to deliver by June and by September. So it, yes. Talk about overwhelm. And I think one of the, one of the key, um, exercises that really helped us, um, start to carve out, um, some breathing space was these iterations of higher level estimations of the things that we need, um, to implement. Uh, they started immediately enabling us to understand if we needed to scope, if we needed to have discussions to either delay or the scope or bring more, uh, people to the mix. So, and following that, you know, kickstarting, we needed to give some space to the teams to come together, start forming their ways of working. The same time getting a high level understanding of what we can commit to. And from there it’s all, again, about regular communication and reflections. It’s like, okay, biweekly, let’s have a quick update, um, and let’s call a spa. The spa. If we’re in the red, let’s call it out. I’d rather, you know, we’d rather know early so that we can do something about it where there’s time rather than, I’m not sure if you’ve ever seen the situation, but you see a status in the green for almost all a quarter. All of a sudden you get to the last two weeks and then the red. So.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Um, while, while we were, uh, initially talking, you said there is a lot to unpack on the, on the developer experience part. I’m sure, uh, that that’s something very core to you, your leadership style, where you ensure a good, uh, developer experience amongst your team. So now you shifted to a new team, uh, and in general, wherever you have been leading teams, uh, are there any specific practices around building a good developer experience that you have been following and that have been working for you? And if there are, uh, can you just share something?
Clint Calleja: That’s a very good question, because I, I see different teams, right? So I’ve done different exercises with different teams, but in this particular case, where I started from was I, I realized that, okay, when you have a new, uh, line being formed, mixed cultures coming from different companies, I said, okay, the one thing I can start with is at least providing, um, a community culture, um, where people feel safe enough to speak up. Why? Because we have challenging goals. We have a lot of questions. There are areas that are known. If people won’t be able to speak up, will, you know, the probability of surprises is gonna be much, much higher.
Kovid Batra: Right.
Clint Calleja: Um, so what are some elements, you know, some actions that I’ve taken to try and improve here? So I think when it comes to leading teams directly in general, we find much more support because even if you look at the Agile manifesto, it talks about a default team where you have a number of engineers who have a trio, ideally, you know, enabled to do decision making. There’s a pattern of reflections that, uh, happen, as Rens said in the retrospectives. Ideally actions get taken. There’s a continuous cycle of improvement. What I found interesting was that beyond one team, right, when I started to lead other leaders or managers, I could see a much bigger opportunity in this team of leaders or team of managers to actually work together as a team. By default, we’re all kind of more focused on our scope, making sure that our people, you know, are, are, are, are, uh, well supported and, uh, and heard and that our team is delivering. But I, I think it’s also worth thinking about if we’re calling it developer experience, let’s call this the manager experience of how much can we help each other out? How much can we support each other to remember that we’re people before managers, you know, like, uh, I dunno, it’s not the first time I, I went to work where I wasn’t feeling so great. So I needed to fine tune myself, expectations on what to produce. So if this is not shared outside with my, with my lead, with my manager, or with my peers, you know, their expectations cannot adjust accordingly. So there’s, there’s a lot of this that I try to, to prioritize by, uh, simple gestures like sharing my weekly goals, trying to encourage my managers to do the same.
Kovid Batra: Yeah.
Clint Calleja: So we can understand the, we try to take one too much in end of week reflection. Think of it like a retrospective, but between managers to say, okay, hey, it was much more disruption than I anticipated this week, and it’s okay. Part of it is actually the psychological safety of being able to say, oh, my short 400%, I only achieved 50. It’s okay. But I learned, right, and I think in terms of metrics, another exercise that I immediately tried to restart in my new line was this exercise that I call the high altitude flight. And this was an exercise where as leaders, we connect those KPIs, um, with qualitative data, like, uh, the weekly pulse and feedback from 15Five, for example. Mm-hmm. And we talk about it on a monthly basis. We bring those data points on a board, you know, start asynchronous, we raise the right questions, uh, challenge each other out and this way we were regularly bringing those data points into the discussion and making sure we’re prioritizing some actions towards them.
Kovid Batra: Totally. I think, um, after talking to so many engineering leaders, one common pattern that I’ve seen, uh, in some of the best leaders is they, they, they over communicate, like in, in a very positive sense I’m saying this, uh, they, they tend, because everyone feels that, uh, a lot of times you’re in a hybrid culture, in a remote culture where as much as you communicate is less actually. So, having those discussions, giving that psychological safety has always worked out for the teams, and I’m sure your team would be very happy in the way you have been driving things. Uh, but thanks, thanks for sharing this experience. I’ll get back to you. Uh, I have a few questions for Rens also on this note. Uh, so Rens’ journey has also been very interesting. He has been the CTO at Prendio and uh, recently I was talking to him about some of the recent initiatives that he was working on with the team. And he talked about some, uh, copilot and, uh, few other automated, uh, code analysis tools that he has been integrating in the team. So Rens, could you just share some experience from there and how that has, uh, impacted the developer experience and the productivity in your teams?
Rens Methratta: Um, yeah, I’d be happy to. It’s been, I think there’s a lot of, a lot of change, uh, happening in terms of capabilities with, uh, AI, right. And, and how we best utilize it. So like, we’ve definitely seen it, you know, as, as models have gotten better, right, I think the biggest thing is we have a, you know, relatively large code base and um, and newer code base for things. And so it’s, it was always good for like, maybe, maybe even like six months ago we would say, Hey, it’s, we can look at some new code, we can improve it, write some unit tests, things like that. But you know, having an AI that has like a really cohesive understanding of our code base and be able to, um, you know, have it, you know, suggest or build, uh, code that would work well, it wasn’t hap, it wouldn’t happen, right. But now it is, right? So I think that’s, that’s coming, the probably the biggest thing we’ve seen in the last couple months and really changing, um, you know, how we think about development a bit, right? Kind of moving, uh, we’ve done some, you know, a lot of this is AI first development, like it changed mindset for us as a team, right? Like how do we, how do we build it? Um, you know, lots of new tools. I think, Kovid, you mentioned there’s tons of new tools available. Yeah. It’s changing constantly, right? So, um, you know, we’ve spent some time. Looking at, looking at some of the newer tools, um, we’ve actually, uh, agreed to as of now, uh, a tool, we, we actually gonna moved everyone over to Cursor. Right. ’cause I just on terms of, um, like what the capabilities it provided and, and, and that, so, uh, and then similarly outside of code, yeah. It’s like, uh, there are tools that, you know, typo has the, uh, you know, for the pull requests, the, you know, uh, uh, summary, things like that’s really helpful, right, for things of that, even on the, and then automated testing, uh, there’s a bunch of things that I think are really changing how we work and make us more productive. And, and it’s, it’s challenging ’cause it’s, you know, it’s, obviously, and it’s good. It’s, it’s a lot of new stuff, right? And it’s really re-making us rethink how we do it. Like, um, you know, developing. So we built, uh, some things now from an AI-first approach, right? So we have to kind of relearn how we do things, right? We’re thinking things out a bit more, like defining things from a prompt first approach, right? What are our prompts, what are our templates for prompts? Like, it’s, it’s been really interesting to see and good to see. Um, uh, and I think, yeah, it definitely made us, uh, more productive and I think we’ll get more productivity as we kind of embrace the tools, but also kind of embrace the mindset. It’s, um, I think for the folks for who’s actually used it as most, and you can kind of see like when they first start utilizing it to maybe where they’re now, like the productivity increase has been tremendous. So that’s probably the biggest change we’ve seen recently. Um, but it, it’s an exciting time. We’re, we’re looking forward to kinda learning more and, and it’s something that we have to, um, you know, we really have to, um, get a better understanding of, uh. But again, which also like challenges too. I would say that too. Right? So, uh, like previously we had a good understanding of what our velocity would be. I am, I mean, right now it’s a good, maybe a good thing, like our velocity would be better, right? And it’s higher. So like, you know, uh, even engaging effort, things like that, it’s, it’s com, it’s a lot of new things that we’re gonna have to learn and, and figure out and, um, reassess. Um, but, um, but yeah, I, I mean, I, I think if I, if I look at anything that’s been different recently, that’s been probably the biggest thing and the biggest change for us in terms of how we work. And then also in kind of incorporate, making sure that we incorporate that into our existing workflows or existing development, uh, structure. That’s, I think it’s a lot of new changes for our team, um, trying to help, help us do it, uh, effectively and making sure we’re thinking about it, but also like giving our team power to like try new stuff has also been really cool too.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Perfect. And, uh, my next question is actually to both of you. Um, you both are trying to implement, let’s say, AI, uh, think you’re trying to implement a better communication, better one-on-ones, bringing that psychological safety, everything that you guys do, I’m sure you, you both have some way to measure the impact of that particular initiative. So how do you guys actually, uh, measure the impact of such initiatives or such, uh, let’s say AI tooling that you brought in, bring into the picture. Uh, maybe Clint, you, you can go ahead.
Clint Calleja: I don’t have examples around AI toolings and in general, it’s more, you know, about utilizing the, actually deciding which of those KPIs are we actually optimizing for for this quarter. So I am guessing, for example, in Rens’ case we were talking about how much AI already is influencing, uh, productivity. So, um, so I would, um, assume or expect a pattern of decreased cycle time because of, uh, the quicker time, uh, to, to implement certain code. Um, I think the key part is something that Rens said a while ago is not focusing a lot on the KPI per se, just for the sake of that KP, but connecting it even in the narrative, in the communication, when we set the goal with the teams, connecting it to the user value. So some, for example, some experiences I’ve had. Okay. I had an, an interesting experience where I did exactly that. I just focused on the pickup time without a user connection. And this is where I got the learning. I’m like, okay, maybe I’m optimizing too much about the, the data points. Whereas eventually, we started shifting towards utilizing MTTD, for example, to, uh, reduce the impact of service disruptions on our customers by detecting, um, disruptions internally, uh, using SLOs to understand proactively if we’re eating too much into the other budget. So we actually act before an incident happens, right?
Kovid Batra: Um, right.
Clint Calleja: So, uh, it’s different, uh, different data points. And when going back to the wellbeing, what I found very interesting, I know that there are the engagement surveys that happen every six months to a year usually. Uh, but because of that time frequency, it sets wellbeing as a legging indicator. When we started utilizing, um, 15Five, for example, there are other tools like it, but the intention is, for every one-on-one, weekly or biweekly, you fill a form starting with how well did you feel from 1 to 5. Because we were collecting that data weekly, all of a sudden the wellbeing pulse became a leading indicator, something that I could attribute to a change, an intentional change that we decided to do in leadership.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Rens, for you. I think, uh, the question is pretty simple again, uh, like you, you are already using typo, right?
Rens Methratta: We are, yeah.
Kovid Batra: But I would just rephrase my question to ask you like, how do use such tools to, uh, make sure maybe your planning, your execution or your automation or your reflection is in place. Uh, how, how do you leverage that?
Rens Methratta: Yeah, and, and I think, I think it’s, uh, maybe understand the same thing. I think, uh, and aligning those two, you know, what the objectives are, right? So I love, uh, I know primarily the sprint retrospective like it, but not the detail, like more on just, um, as a collective team, we said, Hey, this is what we are trying to accomplish, this, we have a plan to do this. We’ve agreed to, um, hey, this is what we have to get done for, you know, these next couple of weeks to make it right. And then it’s, you know, really having the, all that in one place to see like, uh, we said we’re gonna, we need to get all this stuff done. Um, you know, we, this is how, this is how we did, right? So there’s, for us, there’s multiple tools to put together. We have ticketing with Jira, we have obviously Git to kind of get little controls, but then having all that merged into one place we can easily see like, okay, this is what we committed to, this is what we did. Right? And then, and then if, then basically having, being able to say, okay, I will, well, okay, one, okay, here’s where we are. Do we need to, what do we need to do to kind of, uh, kind of problem solve? Are we behind? What do we, what should we do? Right? Having those discussions is great. And then also being like, okay, well, um, and so then it’s again, can we still meet these goals that we wanna do from an objective perspective? What’s holding us back? I think getting to the point where we can have those conversations easily, right? That’s, that’s what the tools, uh, well, and for Typo, that’s what we really use it for, right? So in, instead of, uh, because it’s the context that all those individual stats provide, right? That’s more important. Uh, and and that context towards how does that, at the end of the day, that aligns to what our overall goal is, right? We have this goal, we’re trying to build this or, uh, change this, right? And for our customers, or because of a reason, uh, and, and being able to see like how we’re doing, uh, to that, right? In a, in a, in a good summary is really, is really, uh, is what we find the most useful and then so we can take action on it, right? Um, otherwise if we might, yeah, sometimes you kind of, you look at all these individual stats and you kind of, you, you lose track of it if you just look at those individually. Kind of. But if you have a holistic view of here’s how we are doing, uh, which, which we use it for, that, that really helps.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Perfect. Clint, do you have anything to add on to that?
Clint Calleja: Not specifically, not at this stage.
Kovid Batra: Alright, perfect. Uh, I think, uh, thanks, uh, both of you for sharing, uh, your experiences. Now I think it’s time for us to move on to the QnA section. And I already see, uh, we are, uh, flooded with a few questions here and, uh, we’ll take a minutes break right now and, uh, in the meantime I will just pick on the questions that we need to prioritize here. Alright.
All right, so, uh, there are some interesting people here who have come up. Uh, Clint, I’m sure you have already seen the name. Uh, Paulo uh, the, the guest from the last session and one of our common friends, uh, uh, I’ll just pull up his question first. So I think, uh, this question, uh, Clint, you can take up. Uh, engineering productivity is a lot about the relationship with the product. As senior engineering leaders, what does a great product lead look like?
Clint Calleja: Very good question. Uh, hi Paulo. Um, well, I, I, I, I’ve seen a fair share, right? Uh, of, uh, good traits in, in product, product leads. That’s not me, right? No, that’s not you. Um, I, I think what I can speak for is what I, I tend to look for, um, and first and foremost, I tend to look for in a partner, um, uh, so ideally no division, because that division, um, easily, um, gets, uh, downstream, you know. You start to see that division happening in the teams as well. There’s the, secondly is in the alignment of objectives. So, um, I always tend to lean on my product counterpart to understand more about the top priorities of our product goals. And I bring, uh, which would answer some of the questions here, I bring in the picture, uh, the top, um, technical solvency, uh, challenges. In order to sustain those product goals. And this way, uh, we find a balance on how to set up the next set of goals for a quarter or half a year. Right. And we build together a narrative that we can share both upwards and with the rest of our teams. Uh, and another characteristic, yes, is regular, um, is actually the teamwork element. Uh, a while ago I explained the differentiation, the opportunity I’ve seen, uh, amongst team leads or managers to work together as a team as well. I think the way I like to see it is as a leader, you have at least three teams. You have the people that, uh, you work for, that report to you. You have your trio as another team, and then there’s the, um, the managers in the department, the other leaders in the department, which is yet another team. So in the product lead, I do lean on for, uh, one of my teams to be one of my team, uh, peers.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Perfect. Alright, uh, moving on, uh, to the next question. Uh, that’s from, uh, Vishal. Uh, what are the, some of, what are some of the best practices or tools you have found to improve your own productivity? Rens, would you like to take that?
Rens Methratta: Uh, sure. Um, I’m trying to think. I, I, there’s a lot of tools obviously. I think, I think at the end of the day, I. Um, more than anything else, I would say communication is the biggest thing, right? I would think for productivity. Yeah. From a team perspective. Like, um, like I’ve, you know, I, I’ve, I I’ve worked in a lot of different, uh, types of places from really large enterprise companies to really small startups. Right? And, and I think the common, the common thing, regardless of, of whatever tools we do is really one, how, how well do we, how well are we connected to what we’re building? How well are we, do we as a team understand what we’re trying to build and the overall objectives, right? And, and, um, I think that just, you know, that itself, uh, more than anything is what drives productivity. So like I, you know, I’ve, uh. I, I think the most productive I’ve ever been is, uh, we, we, I was in a startup. We were, uh, we had this one small attic space in the, in, in this, uh, in our, in our city, in, in Cambridge. There was five of us in one room for like, uh, we were, but we were constantly together communicating. Um, and so, uh, and, and then we had, we had a shared vision, right? So we were able to do a lot of stuff very quickly. Um, I think that, so I think what I look into is some of the tools that maybe help us now. It is challenging, I would say, with everyone being remote, right? Distributed. That is probably one of the biggest challenges I, I have for productivity. Um, so, you know, trying to get everyone together. Video calls are great. We try to make sure everyone goes on video, uh, but like at least, you know, try to get, um, as much of that, um, workflow of thinking through like, uh, being together even though we’re not together as much as possible. I, I think that helps a lot. Um, and tools that..
Kovid Batra: Have you, uh, have you tried those digital office tools like, uh, you are virtually in an office?
Rens Methratta: Yeah, we tried that. Uh, I think it’s okay. Uh, we tried some of the white, the whiteboarding tools as well. Right. It, it’s okay. Yeah. You know, quite, and it’s, it’s honestly, it’s, it’s good. Um, but I, you know, the interesting thing I’ve really found, and I, if possible, even if we, if we met one person live for in, in person, even once, right? Yeah. I feel like the relationship between the teams are so much different. So no matter what, no matter how far away we try, we try to get everyone together at least who wants to meet because it is just, uh, I think even like, um, how people’s expressions are, how they are in real life, it, it is so hard to replicate. Right?
Kovid Batra: Totally. Totally. Yeah.
Rens Methratta: And, uh, and those nuances are important in terms of communication. So, um, and, but you know, outside of that, I mean, yeah, I think whatever the things that I would say are the things that can simplify, uh, objectives, right? Make sure it’s clear, uh, anything that would, uh, make, make that easy and straightforward, uh, I think that’s, that’s the best. And then it’s making sure you have easy ways to talk to each other and communicate with each other to kind of, uh, yeah, keep track of what we were doing.
Kovid Batra: Uh, I could see a big smile on Clint’s face when I talked about this virtual office tool. Is, is there an experience that you would like to share, Clint?
Clint Calleja: Uh, not, not really. Like it was, it was fun to hear the question because I’ve been wondering about it as well, but I have to agree with Rens. I think nothing beats, you know, the change that happens after an in-person meetup.
Kovid Batra: Sure.
Clint Calleja: The, the relationships that get built from there are, take a different, you know, a different go to..
Rens Methratta: It is, it is different. Yeah. I, I don’t know why, but if I’ve met someone in person for, I feel like, I know, I feel like I know ’em at a much deeper level than, uh, even though we’re, you know, uh, on video for a long time. It just, it is a different experience.
Kovid Batra: Totally. I think there is another good question. I, I think you both would relate to it. Have you guys had an experience to, uh, work with the Gen Z developers, uh, recently or, or in the last few years?
Rens Methratta: I, I mean, I probably, I’m trying to think through like what Gen Z would be. Yeah.
Kovid Batra: I, I, I get that in my circle, uh, a lot that dealing with the Gen Z developers is getting a little hard for us. And there’s like almost 10 to 12 years and maybe more age gap there. And the thing, and things have changed drastically. So, uh, people find it a little hard to understand and empathize, uh, on, on that front. So do you have anything to share? By the way, this is a question from Madhurima. Uh, yeah.
Rens Methratta: I think, well, I think in general, I think I will just say maybe not, maybe Gen Z, but just in general for junior, more junior developers we bring on board like younger developers, I think it’s, it has been challenging for them too because I think a lot of it’s been remote, A lot of their experience has been remote, right? Um, I think it is harder to acclimate and, and that that a lot of the stuff I’ve learned when I remember, uh, coming up as a software engineer and that’s, a lot of that experience has been like, you know, getting in, meeting with people, whiteboarding, getting through that, right. And having those relationships, um, was really beneficial. So I definitely think it’s harder, um, in that sense. Uh, I, I do think we’ve, uh, personally tried to try to get, um, you know, people who are more junior developers, you know, try to more opportunities to, um, you know, uh, more coaching, um, uh, and, and also like, uh, more one-on-one time just to try to help them acclimate to that because I think we’ve identified that it is harder, especially if we’re being remote first. Um, I haven’t had any, um, I don’t think anything, yeah, I know the memes of the Gen Z developers. I haven’t got any meme worthy stuff or experiences for Gen Z developer. Hasn’t been that, so I’ve maybe, I’ve been lucky, so, but I, I do, but I would empathize with that. It is harder for junior devs because, you know, we are in a much more, you know, uh, remote world and it, it, it’s harder to make those connections.
Kovid Batra: Totally. All right.
Clint Calleja: I think, uh, if I, if I may add something to this, I, uh, maybe what I, I’d add is I, I don’t have a specific way to deal with Gen Z developers because what I try to do is I try to optimize for inclusivity. Okay, there’s Gen Z, but there are many other, you know, cultures and subcultures that require specific attention. So at the end of the day, what I found to be the, at least the best way forward, is a good, strong set of values that are exemplified, that comes from the company, a consistent way of sharing feedback, uh, and the guidelines of how feedback is shared, and of course, making space for anyone to be heard in their preferred, uh, way, you know, they’d like to communicate and you can easily understand this if, you know, as just a part, part of your onboarding, you ask people to provide the user manual for you to understand how is it the best way, you know, for these people to communicate, to get the feedback. So think of it this way, it’s like, okay, providing the support for interfaces which are consistent for everyone, but then being available, uh, for everyone to communicate and get the support the way they prefer it, if that makes sense.
Kovid Batra: Okay. Totally. Alright, uh, thanks guys. Moving on to the next question. Uh, this is from Gaurav. Uh, how do you balance short-term deliverables with long-term technical debt management? Also, how to plan them out effectively while giving some freedom to the engineering teams, some bandwidth to explore and innovate and delve into the unknowns. Uh, Clint, would you like to go first?
Clint Calleja: Sure. Uh, when I, when going through this question, the first thing that came to mind, something that I wanna be clear, I’m not an expert of, but I started, you know, trying and iterating upon is the definition of an engineering strategy. Uh, because this is exactly what I used to try and understand, get a di.. So there’s this, the, the book, uh, ‘Good Strategy Bad Strategy’. So I try to replicate the tips from there. And it’s basically getting a diagnosis of, okay, where’s the money coming from? What are our product goals? And there are other areas to cover. And then coming up with policies, guiding policies. So the, you know, your team knows the direction we want to go, and some high level actions that could be really and truly could become projects or goals to be set as OKRs, for example, I don’t know. Uh, we realized the need from the diagnosis. We realize the need, we need to simplify our architecture, for example. So then I connect that engineering strategy and actions to goals, so that the teams have enough freedom to choose what to tackle on, uh, first, uh, whilst having enough direction on my end.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense.
Clint Calleja: So I’m still fine tuning on how, how good that strategy is. Right. But it’s, it really helps me there.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Uh, the other part of the question also mentions about giving engineering teams that bandwidth, uh, that freedom to innovate and delve into the unknown. So, of course, one part of the question does get answered from your strategy framework, but in that, how, how much do you account for the bandwidth that teams would need to innovate and delve into the unknown? Uh..
Rens Methratta: I, I can deal with that or Clint, either way, I, I think..
Clint Calleja: Go, go, go, go.
Rens Methratta: No, uh, it’s, it’s an interesting point. Like, um, we look at it, I, I think in, in general, like I, we define it like an overall architecture. We try to, for everything we do, like here’s our high level where we want to be from a technical perspective, right? And then whatever solutions we’re trying to do, we, we always wanna try to get to that. But there’s always these, you know, the short and long term and, and how much do we give engineers ability to innovate? We really look at it this way there. If it’s something we need to do right away and we say, Hey, look. Uh, and then, um, and typically if someone has a really great idea and then just like, let’s, let’s do it. Uh, I think our overall question is, okay, worst case scenario, what’s our long, how long would this take to, uh, completely redo to get back to our architecture? Right? Um, and if it’s, if it’s like, Hey, if it’s not gonna, it’s, it’s not gonna increase in, it’s not gonna increase in complexity to redo this a year from now if we, if this is the wrong mistake, right? If we, if the, so we, we are much more lenient towards let’s try something, let’s do this, right? If we think worst case scenario, it’s not gonna be exponentially worse if we put this into production to, to roll this back. Right. And so, uh, if it’s something that is gonna say like, oh, this is gonna lead us down a path where if we’re, this is gonna be, we’re never gonna be able to be fix this, right? Or it’s gonna take us so much effort to fix this, then we’re much more careful and we’re like, well, let’s, let’s see, you know, we might not wanna give as much leeway there. So that’s, that’s kinda how we balance it out typically.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Makes sense. Perfect. Uh, moving on, uh, probably the last question. Uh, this is from Moshiour. Uh, what’s your approach to balancing new feature development with improving system? I think this is what we have already taken up. Do you have practical guidelines for deciding on when to prioritize innovation versus strengthening your foundations? Uh, Moshiour, I think we just answered this question, uh, in the previous question. So, we’ll, we’ll, uh, give this a pass for now, uh, and move on to the next question. Okay. There is another one from Paulo. Uh, how much of engineering productivity do you attribute to great engineers versus how work and information flows among individuals? So, Rens, would you like to take that?
Rens Methratta: Um, this is like a yes and yes. Like, I mean, uh, I, I, I think, uh, really great engineers have like, you know, really great productivity, right? It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a both, it’s a both thing, right? So if you have, um, we’ve seen, I think we’ve kind of seen it from, I get more experienced, like, uh, even on the let’s recent stuff on the AI side. Like we, we playing around with folks who’ve really have gotten understand, understood our, like really solid understanding of our technical infrastructure, but can, you know, learn to use those tools effectively. The output is, is like maybe 10x, but someone who’s, um, you know, not as solid on like maybe some of our existing code base technical understandings and utilizing it is, is still improving. It’s like, you know, maybe 2x, 3x, right? So you definitely see that difference. Um, and I think that’s important. Um, but I, I think, you know, the other part about that is communication between the teams and how you do it and making sure that, similarly going back to productivity, like are we, are we building the right things? Right? We can build, yeah, you know, a lot of, a lot of stuff very quickly, but it might not be worth it if we don’t communicate well, we’re probably building completely different things. So I, I think it goes hand in hand. Um, I, you know, I think, I don’t think there’s a really way to. Uh, it’s not an, it’s not an ‘or’, it’s really an ‘and’.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. No, I think it’s, it’s well answered. Clint, do you have anything to add here?
Clint Calleja: It’s, uh, very much in line with Rens, I think, and even, you know, even in fact the KPI, the KPI suggest looking at the holistic of a theme. So once I do believed that, you know, great engineers, the experience an engineer brings will make a difference. It’s not the first time I’ve also seen great engineers not compatible with a team, and they, you know, the, the, it doesn’t work out. So you start to see that the productivity is not really, uh, improving. So yes, you need great engineers, but, uh, there’s a very big emphasis. I think it goes, it’s beyond 50/50. I think there’s a bigger emphasis, in my opinion, on the ways of working, the respectful ways of working, small details. I don’t know, like, um, when is, when should I expect my teammate to pick up a pull request during the sprint? Um, how do I make it easier for them? Should opening up a request with 50 change files, embedding refactoring with a bot fix, does that make it, you know, small things. But I think this is where, um, you can reduce a lot of friction and may make, uh, bring more harmony.
Kovid Batra: Okay. Makes sense. Um, you guys, I think we are already, uh, done with our time today, but, uh, I feel bad for other people who have put in questions, so I just wanna take one more, uh, this sounds interesting. Uh, are you guys okay to extend it for like 2–3 more minutes?
Rens Methratta: Sure.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Uh, this question comes from Nisha. Uh, how to align teams to respond to developer surveys and use engineering metrics to improve overall experience and performance. So I think both of you have some experience here. Uh, clint is, uh, already, uh, a promoter of having communication, having those one-on-ones with teams. So, and for, uh, Rens, I know he’s using Typo, so he’s already into that setup where he is using engineering metrics and developer surveys with the, with the developers. So both of your opinion would be great here. Uh, Rens, would you like to go first?
Rens Methratta: Um, yeah. To Nisha’s question, um, I’ve never had good luck with like, surveys and, uh, with like developers, quite honestly. They’re just not, um, you know, I think a lot of it is, uh, time spent and, and, and, you know, I, I try to try to do one-on-ones with people, um, and just, you know, get an understanding of how people are doing. Um, I, I, you know, um, we’ve done, tried to do surveys and it’s, you know, people, it becomes, people aren’t, you know, I don’t think the, the responses get, um, less and less valid in some ways if, if it becomes robotic, uh, in a lot of ways. So I, I really think, I think aligning to how people are doing is, from my perspective, is really more, more hands-on, more one-on-one discussions and conversations.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. How, how did that work for you, Clint? Uh..
Clint Calleja: I, uh, what, what, what Rens just, uh, just, just explained, uh, resonates with a lot of my experiences in the past. It was, uh, a different and eye-opening experience at Hotjar, where I’ve seen the use of, the weekly use of such a survey being well, um, being, um, well adopted. And when I joined Hotjar, I joined as an individual contributor, as a front end engineer. So the first time I had to fill one of these, first I was like, okay, I have to do this every week. But the thing that made me change my mind was the actions I was seeing coming out, the benefits for me that I was seeing coming out from my lead. This wasn’t just a form, this was becoming the talking points of the one hour session I had with him every week. Actions get taken out, which were dedicated to me. So it was a fun fact. This was the first remote experience for me, but the one-on-ones felt like the most tailored I’ve ever had. So think..
Kovid Batra: That’s interesting. Yeah.
Clint Calleja: If I can sum up on the developer surveys, um, I understand that the less people can under an attribute, their input to actual outcomes, to actual change then, you know, why spend the effort? So on, on my end, what I try to do as much as possible is not just collect the data. Here’s a summary of the points. Here are some actions which are now part of this strategy. Remember the connection of the strategy. And here’s why when we are trying to attack what. So again, not a silver, uh, silver bullet.
Kovid Batra: Yeah. Yeah.
Clint Calleja: And then the second part on engineering metrics, I think here, uh, I really rely on engineering leaders to be the glue of bringing those data points into the retrospectives. So the engineering managers are in the best position to connect those data points with the ways of working and the patterns seen throughout the sprints. And in an end of sprint review, you know, express, okay, here are the patterns that I see. Let’s talk about this. Let’s celebrate this because it’s a, you know, huge milestone.
Kovid Batra: Makes sense. Great. Uh, Rens, you wanna add something?
Rens Methratta: No, I, I, I would agree. I think that’s a good, I that’s a good call out. Uh, yeah. Getting, maybe having more action oriented from the surveys would provide different results. Um, and we, we, we tried something where we try to do our, do our one-on-ones as a, as, as a daily survey. Yeah. I didn’t think it was successful because it, it didn’t, I think people weren’t, um, weren’t seeing that individual response back from them. Right. It was just more like data collection for data aggregation purposes. Yeah. Wasn’t, which wasn’t, people didn’t seem to value it.
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Perfect. Thank you so much guys. Uh, this was an amazing session. Uh, thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing all your thoughts. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you, to talk to folks like you who are open, take out time from their busy schedules and give it for the community. Thanks once again.
Clint Calleja: Thanks for the invite. Yeah. And nice to meet you guys.
Rens Methratta: Same here, Clint.
Kovid Batra: All right, guys. That’s our time. Signing off for today. Bye-bye. Okay.
Implement engineering metrics, gather SDLC insights & set continuous improvement goals in your dev teams.
Try Live Demo
