In this episode of the groCTO Originals podcast, host Kovid Batra engages in an insightful conversation with Christopher Zotter, the Head of Digital Engineering at Sky, Germany. Christopher brings a wealth of experience, including a decade of leading engineering teams and founding a software development agency.
Known for his unique leadership philosophy, Christopher believes in the power of building trust, embracing failures, and fostering a transparent culture. He shares his journey from an apprentice in Germany to a leadership role, emphasizing the importance of hands-on experience and continuous learning. The discussion delves into the challenges and strategies of managing culturally diverse remote teams, effective communication, and transitioning from legacy systems to cutting-edge technologies.
Christopher also highlights the significance of being a role model and integrating community involvement into one’s career. This episode offers a deep dive into the principles and practices that can guide leaders in nurturing successful global development teams.
Kovid Batra: Hi, everyone. This is Kovid, back with another episode of groCTO podcast. And today with us, we have a very special guest. Uh, he’s Head of Engineering at Sky, Germany. He is also the founder of a software dev agency, and he has been leading engineering teams from past 10 years now. And today, we are going to talk to him about how to lead those global dev teams because he has been an expert at doing that. So welcome to the show, Christopher. Great to have you here.
Christopher Zotter: Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here, part of the great podcast. I get to know this and also the last months and with key insights and hope I can provide some of my learnings from the past experience also to your great audience. So happy, happy to be here.
Kovid Batra: I’m sure you can do that. All right. But before we get started into, um, knowing something about your team and your, uh, areas of expertise of how you lead teams, we would love to know a little bit about you. Like something that LinkedIn doesn’t know, something that is very impactful in your life, from your childhood, from your teenage. Um anything that you would like to share
Christopher Zotter: So first of all, the most important part is not business, it’s my family. So I’m a proud father of two kids and I have a lovely wife. So this is the foundation of everything that I can do, also my job properly to be honest and gives me energy. Um, and also what is not on LinkedIn or it’s on LinkedIn, but it’s worth mentioning is I didn’t study anything. So you see now my title, which is, I also need to reflect, impressive to be honest, also to myself, but I only did a normal apprenticeship in Germany to work as a software developer. So I really start at the core of the things, but now I managed to do so. So I make my, my way through doing the things, getting hats, hands-on, and don’t fear to make mistakes. I learned from things, um, I did, I deployed the hard coded ID and tested it on production while on a software in the past. Yeah, that never happened again. So I really get hands-on and get these kinds of experiences. Um, And what is also, I think, important is to not only focus on, on the software things, but also doing some things for the society, for the community beside the work, which, which gave me the balance. So this is not on LinkedIn. This is something that has also very positive impact on, on my, on my past. So, um, yeah, that’s roughly where, who am I, but I can also continue a bit of my journey to, to becoming that position if you’re interested in too.
Kovid Batra: Sure, why not? Please go ahead.
Christopher Zotter: Um, yeah, then my, my, as I said, I, I did an apprenticeship in Germany, which takes mostly three, three and a half years, and I had the chance to work at the very small company. It’s not, it’s not, the company doesn’t exist anymore, I think, but I got the chance to work in a very small team with great experts, and I got responsibility from day one. So I didn’t develop something for the trash. It was really then something which can go to production, of course, with review process, et cetera. And again, the advice I can already share is try to do as many things as possible. Even if in the younger years, you have the time. I see that now with family, the priority shifts obviously, but use the time you have, do side projects if possible, because getting hands on the things, nothing can beat experience. And this is, I think also the big learning I had over the, uh, over the time is I get all of my, um, promotions all of my way through the career, starting from an apprenticeship, junior developer, senior developer, lead developer, and now Head of Engineering, um, through my experience. I did hands-on and I can prove, showcase what I did starting from code skills, simple HTML page for with the, with the simple contact form, everything. So I get my hands on different things to get, uh, get, get the knowledge, and I think knowledge and experience beats most of the, of the things, but you can’t study it. Um, you need to get hands-on. Yeah, just briefly, and now I’m here.
Kovid Batra: Yeah, no, I think that was a very, very nice intro, and I think we now, we now know you a little more. And one, one thing that I really loved when you said that, uh, it’s not just about work. Uh, there is family, there’s community that you want to do for. So I’m sure this community thing which you are doing, uh, this, this would have helped in shaping up, uh, some level of leadership, some level of giving back. I think leadership is another name for giving back. So from there, it should be coming in. So can you share some of your experience from there that helped you in your career moving from let’s say an IC to an EM and then growing to a leadership position?
Christopher Zotter: I like that you say leadership is giving back. Yes. Um, I didn’t see it that way, but it totally echoes with me. Um, at the end, it’s all about the people. Um, I think we have, we have also on this planet, so many, uh, wars happening, so many people working against it, and I’m, I try to do the opposite because we’re all humans. And I learned also through working for the community in a certain way. So I, I worked for one year to support disabled people, to go with them to school, young people, and there I learned, hey, these are all humans and everybody’s trying their best. Also now, in my position, it’s about people, it’s about getting their feelings, getting their circumstances and getting their perspectives, getting their culture. We will come to the topic later, um, because there are different cultures. We are working together, even in software development, you’re across the globe. Um, and there, you need, always need to, to think about and not act like everybody has the pressure to get it done, get it done. And so, we need to consider that humans behind and let’s find to create a win-win situation for everybody that everybody feels confident, confident and comfortable and respected. And, um, this I learned, I’m a very value-driven person. And my key value is respect because respect is there for everything no matter what you’re doing. Um, it starts going into the office, the cleaning person, greet the same way as you greet the CEO. Um, it’s, it’s, we are all humans, everybody’s putting the bits and pieces together and this sometimes we, we forget in our daily business. So, um, this is what I definitely learned from being there, putting, giving away something for the community or whatever there is. So yeah
Kovid Batra: Perfect. Perfect. And another interesting piece in your career is, uh, no academic background, uh, in engineering and then doing things hands-on. And then, uh, you are working on a side business as well, which you just mentioned where you, you recommend people to do that in the early ages, because that’s where you get the most of your experience and knowledge to do things, how to complete things. How exactly that has contributed in your career growth? Because I also come from a similar experience. I would love for you to explain it if this has contributed in some way
Christopher Zotter: Okay. Yeah, great. Um, that’s yeah. I started my side business also, I think now eight, nine years ago. Um, and by the way, this will now come to an end right now. It’s already more or less ended because my, my daily job requires full attention plus family. There is no time and you need to also to say no to the things. Um, but in that time it was, uh, it was pretty important for me because what I did is the things I learned in my company, in my apprenticeship, um, I tried to do then some projects for first, for my own and then for my inner circle. So for some friends, they had also built up a company, whatever that is, need a home page, need a web application. Um, and I built it on my side business. Then to adapt the things I learned in my, in my daily business and enhance it on a certain way in my environment to test it to work against and enhance the knowledge. Try things out if they’re working there in a smaller, bits of pieces, not in the big company where you’re working on. Um, helps me a lot to grow, trying out, trial and error. Uh, and at least that’s the experience you get and this experience, if you bring it back to your company, if you want it to make career, um, this is where you can benefit from, and yeah, that knowledge beats everything at the end.
Kovid Batra: Sure. I think for me, like I also had a side business and how it has helped me is that I was interacting with the customers directly, right? So that was for me a great experience, which when you are in a larger organization where you have people doing the front end job and then you are getting just the requirements, that relatability with the problem statement with the audience is much lesser So I think that way it has helped me much more from that point of view.
Christopher Zotter: Interesting, because we at Sky we have, our claim is the, the customer or the users in the centric of everything and I have the, the I, I’m a Sky, a soccer fan, and, and, and Sky probably just to name it what we are doing, um, because there is probably a conflict with your audience from India because Sky channel there is known and it’s a bit of a different thing than what Sky Germany is doing. So, um, for, for, for you, we are the major entertainment provider here in Germany called pay tv. We have sports, um, mostly the Bundesliga, so the German soccer football, uh, um, rights we have in place or some, uh, own produced movies. Uh, you can watch Netflix and stuff over our platform, either it’s streaming or it’s our Q receiver. And, um, as I’m a big, Bayern Munich fan, I use Sky or previously it was named Premier, uh, for a long, long time ago. So I’m also the customer on the one hand side to use our product and know what’s going on and know the issues and can bring it then into and learn from it on, on the other side, which is now a great benefit, but I can echo it. It’s, it’s definitely one of the key things to know who’s your audience and what are the users and what are the customers and go out and get to know them, what is their behavior in order to deliver them the best product, the best experience they can, they can have.
Kovid Batra: Sure, sure. Absolutely. All right. I think, uh, that was, outside what you do at Sky, most of it, uh, we discussed. Now moving in from that note into the world of Sky where you are heading teams and, uh, most of them are remotely working from India, from Germany and other parts of the world. So first thing I would like to understand, like, how things have changed in the last four or five years from your perspective? Um, you have grown from a manager to a leadership profile. What were those things that came into, uh, into your role as a responsibility, uh, that you took up with these global teams that help you grow here? How was the experience the last four years?
Christopher Zotter: It was an amazing ride. Um, I think every, every, every step has their challenges in, in a certain way. Um, being a developer, you can then go to either other developers or have your scrum master and feature teams. Um, but coming to be, um, a leader for such, such a, such a big team. So my team is currently, we have five people here in Germany and we have 15–16 right now sitting in Chennai, India. You have to think about different things. You have to think about the team harmony, how the people working together, you have to think about communication. You have to think about values, how everything works then together, and not only getting the code done in a proper way with all of their quality checks in between, but also that I need now to consider there helps me to get the experience in beforehand to know what is technically possible, what we need to do in order to shape, um, the best and the most effective process. We will talk about that, I think, later also, what can be done there. But also, um, yeah, to consider, as I said previously, the different perspectives. Everybody is on a different level, um, has different circumstances. Somebody is now getting it further earlier. So probably not that much focus on work, which is fine. We need to deal with that also to support wherever we can. Somebody is getting sick and all of the things you need to consider. Um, and it’s, it was also a big change for me and I’m still in progress to be honest, because I started my journey as a developer and I love to code also. Um, but so much coding in that position is not possible anymore. And you need to build up your team where you can trust and give them the task and get it back done or get it, getting the right feedback, uh, whatever that is. So this is one of the things to build trust to having a lot of conversations. So having a lot of coffee in the office with the different guys to get to know what’s going on. And of course, um, you are now, or I am now in a position to having, uh, stakeholders, uh, communication with our CTO, COO, uh, different, different areas, which you don’t have normally as a developer that you only get the requirements. So again, I’m a bit next to the customer, right? Because I can also bring my bits and pieces into some of the features and decisions. Um, and this, this is one of the biggest changes to, to go out of the real, getting the hands-on and, and yeah, bringing the layer on top to prepare everything and protect everything that my developers can really focus or my architects can focus on the work without any disruption and make the work as smooth and as fast as possible.
Kovid Batra: But I think in your case, um, as compared to, uh, I would say, a single culture, a uniculture team, um, your case is different. You have people in India, across the globe. This collaboration, uh, I’m sure this becomes a little difficult and it’s a challenge of a lot of companies after COVID, uh, because things have gone remote and people are hiring from across the borders. How, how it has been an experience for you to handle these remote teams who are from different culture? And what, what really worked out, what didn’t work out some of those examples from your journey?
Christopher Zotter: Uh, yes, this is definitely a challenge and I have to say I’m the only German-speaking guy in my team. So we are a German company, but I’m the only German speaking guy. So I, in Germany, we have also some Indian colleagues, some from Russia, uh, sorry, from Ukraine. We have some from, uh, Egypt. So it’s mixed. And as, as you said, a lot of people are coming from, from Chennai, India. And imagine this is about 4, 000 kilometers difference. Um, a lot of, uh, at the end, and we have two different cultures. And this was the biggest learning I got to know is at the beginning, just an example, a yes doesn’t mean a yes. Um, we had some requirements, we talked about that and I got the feedback, “Yes.” Okay, and then I assumed the ticket will be done, but it was only, “Yes. I got to know that I need to do that.” But not, “Yes, I understand it.” So there’s a communication, a learning over the time and which the whole company has to do. So we all need to transform here at Sky and also at Comcast Engineering in India that we are going together, find a way of communication, get to know the, the other, uh, the other culture, the other people, the other behavior, how they’re working.
Um, and of course, I’m also a fan of remote working, but also a fan of getting in touch, uh, getting into, into personal conversations with people, um, not only, uh, not via camera, but in person. So that’s also why we have some mandatory days at Sky where we need to go to the office. But I’ll also be there in India once or twice a year, even if it’s a long travel and, you know, challenge with family, but, um, the investment is, is worth it. Um, I got to know the, the Indian culture very well. Um, and it’s also kind to them to show appreciation. So they recognize, “Hey, they really take care about us and we’re not only there outsource for things, get the things done.” And as I said, I’m taking care of, at least my goal is to take care about the people, to treat them with respect and try to find the way together. And if you’re having the 1-on-1 conversations in person, get to know the culture, go to temples, get to know all of the things we’re running around, what they, what, the food. Oh! It’s amazing in India. Um, everything. Um, then you grow together and then this makes, after my second visit, I can say, um, the communication was a totally different one. So I got to know then, or I feel really the trust of my team then to say, “Hey, Christopher, this doesn’t work.” So they say and you know, this is a cultural topic because in india, it’s normally, uh, it’s they’re not used to saying, “No, it’s not working.” They say yes and try to make it work anyhow, but it doesn’t help in the, in the daily business. So it’s better to say, “Uh, I need help at the first place and then we can get it done as a team.” But coming to that point, that’s one of the biggest challenges I faced. It’s still not perfect yet, but this is where we think always about what is their circumstances? Is that really yes, they got it or do they need some other kind of help, um, that we can provide them to them?
Kovid Batra: I think a very, very good example. Being an Indian, I can totally relate to it. Uh, we go with that mindset and at times it is not, uh, beneficial for the business as such, but there is a natural instinct which says, okay, let’s say yes. Let’s say, “Yeah, we are trying.” And try to fight for it maybe. Not sure what exactly drives that, but yeah, a very, uh, important point to understand and look at.
All right. So I think this is, this is definitely one example, which, uh, our audiences, if they are leading some teams from India, would keep in mind when they’re leading them. Anything else that you, that comes to your mind that you would want to do to ensure good communication or collaboration across these teams?
Christopher Zotter: I think when we stick to the topic is to be the role model. Um, I said it in my introduction. I deployed something hard coded to production with an ID. I bring that always as an example to say “Yes, this was a failure.” But I took a great learning out of it. So to establish these kind of things to acting as a role model, especially as a leader, because then you lead and the people will follow you and you should.. My claim is to act as a leader who is not there. I’m the same. I only have another title, but we are all equal. I can’t do my work without you and the other way around. So we’re one team, no matter who has, which level of a junior or, uh, whoever that is, so working together as a team and be there and support everybody. And I say always, “If they don’t need me anymore, I did my job perfectly.” Um, so this is what I, what I’m aiming for. No, to be really a leader, to be a role model, to, to say, “Hey, this doesn’t work.” “Oh, this was my failure of the week.” That’s what we probably now try to establish failure of the week that everybody, uh, put that failure into learning and share that with the audience. Um, it breaks a bit everything. So they see, “Hey, they are now doing it. So I can do that as well.” And this takes away the fear of if I say too much things I can’t do, I get fired. That’s the most fear, I also get to know why talking to the people. Um, as I know, that’s not the case. I appreciate it more if you say it to me instead of hiding it. So, um, yeah, this is definitely, definitely the thing.
Kovid Batra: True. I think one example that comes to my mind, uh, when I talk to my, um, friends and colleagues who are working across different organizations, like Amazon, Microsoft, world, handling teams from India for US or vice versa. Um, whenever there is huge transitions, let’s say from legacy systems to new architecture, they are like for 6 to 10 to 12 months, I’ve seen they were in a stressed situation where they’re saying like, “The team is not here communicating and managing that stuff is becoming difficult for me.” They were making multiple trips to, to the, uh, to the main home ground and then getting things done. So in your case, you, you guys are remote-first and I’m assuming most of the times you’re dealing with such situations remotely. So has there been a situation where you had to migrate from some legacy systems to new systems, new architecture, and, uh, there were challenges on that journey?
Christopher Zotter: Um, we’re currently in. Uh, so we are in a big transformation phase at Sky. So this is taking off for some years. And, uh, let’s say we in the final steps to be there to create, we started everything, challenged every technology we had, um, a few years back and say, “What can we provide best to our customers? So what technology is cutting edge? What technology is bringing our faster cycles of deployment, faster cycles of changes?” And challenged our content management system up to all completely our CRM system. Um, and that’s, that’s, we’re currently in the middle of it. Um, the challenge is obviously, yes, you always did in the past, something is not documented, some processes are there, and not everybody’s trying to challenge all of the things which happened in the past but it’s exactly the right time to do so, to, to challenge what was there. Do we really need to convert it and migrate it to a new system or not? Um, and get better into doing that. So take the learnings, challenge it and bring it to the new system. And that we’re in the middle of, um, that’s why, why I also started at Sky to, to, to kick-off that journey and at this part of time I was the developer who started it and, um, now i’m happy to say that we are in a very good shape. So we are live with, uh, with most of the things already, the migration is still going on, but um, our sales journey and stuff is already live and going to customers. We have proper monitoring set up. We have good testing in place. So, um, yeah, but again, what I said is, um, I see also now the old worlds, the old systems, um, and we, we all have to be open-minded to getting, getting transferred to new things, um, to always learn every day, especially, I think your audience knows that pretty well. In software development or development is that every day is a new tool, every day is a new change, a new version and new things you need to update it here and there. To always stick to that level is a challenge we face every day, but we’re trying to do our best to always get the latest version and the best features out for our customers.
Kovid Batra: Sure. I think one very good point you highlighted, like as a leader, uh, as a manager, you might still realize that this change is for the good, and this change is going to impact us in much better ways for the business point of view, from our engineering point of view. But when it comes to the people who are actually developing, coding, uh, how do you ensure like such big migrations come handy, people don’t have resistance? Because giving a plan and a strategy, uh, is definitely one thing which you have to craft carefully. But one very important thing goes into the, the innate motivation of people to execute it so that they think of use cases, make it even better than what you have planned for, at least on the paper. So what, what do you do to ensure such kind of, uh, culture shift or such kind of culture being instilled in people to embrace that change?
Christopher Zotter: Um, first of all, I think if you are yourself your own customer, this is the first thing. So you need to consume your own product as well. So dog food it. Um, It’s a bit difficult with India, but we have possibilities to also use Sky at least in the office to play around, to watch the movies to watch the things, um, that we can identify with that. That’s the first thing that we know what we’re doing to know what, how our customers are acting and I always said is I use a lot of data, um, to just, hey, how many visits do we have on these pages? Or check this feature, has this impact on our sales, whatever that is. So using that data to show, hey, the button you’re changing right now is not only a color change. This has a psychologically thing. If you change it to green one to give a positive feedback to our customers that they would click then and buy the things, just stupid example. Um, And you will see when we put that on production or do some user tests, you see directly your impact and it would go to millions of customers. And coming out and bringing that every time, every day to the table, um, opens up, hey, the things they’re doing, they have a real impact and this is everybody can be proud of. And I said always, hey, look, if you show that to your family and your mother, this, you can, and that’s a good thing at that development. You can show the things, uh, if you’re doing an API, it’s also important, but it’s a different thing. That’s why I love that development to say, you can showcase the things. Um, so we’re constantly measuring the things constantly, constantly improving. And this gives also the, the, the developers a sense of, “Hey, this is really important, what I’m doing here and this is the impact.” Um, and in order not to, you know, putting too much pressure on the people. We always have, uh, uh, we are working in a safe environment, so a scaled agile framework where we plan the next three months ahead and the planning is done by the developers and the developers commit to this, um, uh, plan provided by the business and they commit what they can achieve. So they have then the plan and they have an influence on that. And this gives us a balance to first be predictable, but also, uh, make the developers identify with things they’re developing.
Kovid Batra: Got it. Got it. Makes sense. I think it revolves around creating those right incentives, creating those right experiences for the developers to understand and relate to. Uh, so while, while you’re talking about having those right incentives, measuring the impactful areas, uh, I’m sure you must be using some level of metrics, some level of processes to ensure that you continuously improve on these things, you continuously keep working on the impactful areas. So, uh, at, at Sky or at your previous organizations, what kind of frameworks you have deployed? What kind of metrics you look at for different initiatives?
Christopher Zotter: Um, first of all, uh, I got to know that only what you measure, you can improve. That’s the one claim I always get to know. Um, it can be a weight, but, uh, then you see also some improvements. So just an example. Um, I’m, I’m a developer. So, uh, let’s start with the coding part, probably GitHub. Um, yeah, I mean, GitHub, a lot of different cycles, um, starting from creating a pull request, uh, reviewing a pull request, checking if it gets rejected or not, how many comments you get, um, uh, up to, it’s connected to CI/CD where some of our testing frameworks are running against different features we wanted to merge. Um, this is one of the key indicators where we say, um, or in the past also where we, we were looking into and say, “Okay, um, how big is a pull request? How much time does it take that it gets reviewed?” Um, all of these KPIs, um, or there are KPIs behind that, but the, my goal is that I get identified if I need to go deeper into some of the topics to find probably some root cause. Um, the same happened on, on the delivery level. So not on the code level but on the delivery level where we have our tickets, our story points and where we can roughly say a story point is one day more or less, um, and if I see there’s one story point, but the ticket is in development for five days, um, I need to go into, uh, into communication, say, “Hey, are there any challenges?” Um, or, “Do you need some support? Is there a knowledge gap?” Or if a feature has too many bugs after that assigned, um, after it’s merged to our development stage, um, we probably have a lack of quality. It could lead to a lack of, uh, lack of yeah knowledge here and there. So this is my, my measures to not to and this is again coming into a culture topic, um, to use the data the right way and not to say, “I micromanage you. You get fired if you don’t hit the KPIs.” No. Um, the key is we need to have in these KPIs that I get an alert as early as possible that I need to go into communication and find a way to take the people by hand and work together against some strategies. Could be knowledge sharing, could be coachings, could be whatever that is. It could also be that I got identified. We have some issues with one of the product owners, for example, who doesn’t provide all of the details in a ticket beforehand. It comes to development. It can be a lot of things, but if I don’t do that, I don’t have or at least I get to know that by a lot of weeks later, and then it’s too late. So gives me an indicator where I need to get into communication to improve, um, the process, to improve, um, the people, to make them better and, and yeah, to support them.
Kovid Batra: Make sense. I think very rightly said, um, using these metrics always makes sense, but how you’re using it will ultimately be the core thing, whether they are going to help you or they can give back. So yeah, I think great advice there, Christopher. And I think in the interest of time, uh, we’ll have to take a pause here, though I, I really loved the discussion and I would love to deep dive more into how you’re managing your teams, but maybe another episode for that. Uh, and once again, uh, thanks a lot for taking our time, sharing your experience at Sky, telling us about yourself. Thank you so much.
Christopher Zotter: Thanks for having me. Uh, thanks for having me. It was a pleasure to be here. Happy to come a second time to dive deep, uh, deep dive into some of the topics, um, if interested and, uh, also kudos to you. It’s a great podcast. I love to listen to it on my own because I also pick some nuggets out of that each of the time. So keep, keep pushing that. Thanks a lot.
Kovid Batra: Thank you so much, Christopher.
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